Curious what other folks’ take on the following locations is for CCW.
Pharmacies: I heard something about Nappen saying avoiding the counter area at pharmacies and in grocery stores but I thought the law used the term “dispensary” which I attribute to weed shops. Is this just a case of extra CYA or is there something to it? And what about pharmacy drive-thrus?
Street fairs. We have street fairs all over locally. Typically vendors and food trucks, that sort of thing. Would these fall under a public gather requiring permits? Seems like a stretch but depends on who’s interpreting the law I suppose. Meaning, fair organizers, vendors or the town might need to get permits to put on the fair.
Also, should we restart the old thread of places by county where there no-carry signs up?
A portion of the transcript from Nappen’s “Gun Lawyer” podcast #157:
MEDICAL FACILITIES
Well, some important notes in this list. A medical office. Don’t go to your doctor with your gun. Don’t go there. Ambulatory Care Facility. Don’t go there with your gun. Dispensary. Wait a minute. Isn’t that a drugstore? Beware of the pharmacy portion of the drugstore, if that’s going to be considered a dispensary. And, of course, every conceivable hospital they could think of is on the list. Yet, here’s an interesting example. Once I was presenting this, and a doctor said, look, I can’t have a gun in my own medical office? It makes medical offices a sensitive place. Well, since it was the doctor’s own medical office, he could have his gun there. Because remember what I said at the beginning, the 39-6 exemptions still apply, regardless of whether it’s a sensitive place. One of those exemptions is possession in ones place of business. So, if the doctor owns the office, then the doctor can have his gun and carry it in his medical office. Of course, we can’t carry there. It’s not our medical office. But you can see how the importance of the 39-6 exemption can still come into play here. You cannot have your handgun at a facility licensed or regulated by the Department of Human Services, Department of Children and Families, or Department of Health, other than a health care facility, that provides addiction or mental health treatment or support services.
I maintained that list, and I hope it was useful. I simply started a thread with a list of NJ counties, and asked people to notify me wherever they say a ‘no guns’ sign. Then I added the city, business, location of sign (some were in non-obvious locations) and date in one line, so over time there grew an alphabetical list of prohibited businesses, by county. I was always pleased that the list remained fairly short.
Since I’m now living in Idaho and not on the forum as often, I’m not the right person to keep the list, but hopefully someone else will start it up. Unfortunately, I don’t have an archived version of the old page.
Idaho, as one might expect, has a refreshingly short list of prohibited places. Courthouses, correctional facilities, schools through grade 12 (no prohibition on college campuses), plus the federal prohibition on carrying inside airports. Businesses can post ‘no gun’ signs, but the only one I’ve ever seen was at an emergency care clinic. There is no blanket prohibition on medical facilities, bars/restaurants, public gatherings, etc.
Since open carry is also constitutionally allowed (I’m not personally a fan, but I make an exception when in grizzly country), one no longer has to worry about printing, or otherwise accidentally exposing a concealed handgun. While a lock box for the car is a great idea, it’s not required. If you need to run into a prohibited facility, you can just put the gun in the glove box or center console. Legal to carry it there, too.
Which is why I haven’t jumped through the hoops to get the NJ CCW permit yet. It’s crazy that every 10 steps you walk, you have to determine if you’ve entered a “sensitive” area… and worry that a LEO will interpret the law wrong, putting you into legal jeopardy… it ain’t worth it…
Thanks for pulling that off of the net, I hadn’t considered using the Wayback machine.
If anyone on the board wants to use my list from the old board as a starting point for a new list here, have at it. I think it is a useful resource, perhaps it should be a sticky. It always keeps the current list at the top of the thread, so no need to read through an increasingly-long thread to find new prohibited businesses.
It wasn’t too much of a burden to maintain, I think it was rare to have to make more than two additions a month.
For what it’s worth, which is nothing, the LEO’s I’ve spoken with about this all said that it’s so muddled and vague they avoid it altogether whenever they can. Meaning they’re not looking for issues. Problem is if something does go down at a street fair that required a permit who knows what would happen. How are we supposed to know if a permit was required or not. I take a dispensary to mean a cannabis dispensary but that’s my opinion and also means nothing with interpreting this bullshit
Before the Bruen decision NJ argued in carry law challenges that “very few people applied, and the vast majority of those that did were granted” (because they were all security job related).
After the Bruen decision NJ argued that it was going to be “blood in the streets” with everyone pulling a gun for every minor argument.
When you get your PTC you put the lie to both of those arguments - the more PTC holders, the mroe NJ can no longer claim it’s just the “fringe” that wants them, and the more PTC holders who don’t commit crime, the worse the stats look for NJ’s next attempt to argue how PTC holders are such a threat that they should be restricted from carrying everywhere.
Become part of the solution; become part of the wave that’s forcing NJ into the corner of recognizing that carrying guns is normal, and normal people carry guns.
I think the lie to the arguments was proven long ago, we have 29 constitutional carry states along with many others that have almost restriction free CCW permits. If NJ wanted to become a “free” state regarding CCW, all the evidence exists…
But they don’t, and I don’t think the number of new CCW holders in this state will change that.
Remember, NJ got dragged, kicking and screaming, into approving CCW permits. And what was their response, a “sensitive places” list as long as your arm…
That’s already been recognized by almost 75% of states, but NJ doesn’t care… Case in point, I can carry in like 34 different other states with my non-resident CCW permits… just not in my HOME state… how screwed up is that?
I got mine, but I do agree with Sniper about NJ. As long as this state is run by Democrats and RINOS, there will be no official recognition that firearms are beneficial,or even largely benign, in any way, shape, or form. Those jerks will continue to fight tooth and nail against any and all self-defense possession and/or use of firearms like the insane mangy dogs they are. Every time and appellate court (or SCOTUS) knocks down a restriction, they will do their best to erect two in its place. It isn’t isn’t about recognizing obvious facts; it’s about maintaining their power to deny us choices and run our lives for us.
Not to bust chops, but has any of those organizations actually accomplished anything positive for us, besides filling brief after brief?
Remember, we got “downgraded” to 10 round mags back in October 2018. And guess what, we are still sitting with a 10 round restriction 6 YEARS later… That should have been an easy argument to win.
I don’t see any benefit for me to jump through the hoops, so I can “say” I have a NJ CCW, while only allowed to carry as I go from my mailbox to my front door, and maybe carry deep in the woods.
You can call it “complaining”. I call it being a realist to the facts on the ground.
Sniper has a good point, the needle hasn’t moved at all. Only my opinion, but it’s not because the different organizations aren’t trying, the 3rd is permitted to sit on cases for years. SCOTUS has been rather lackluster as well.
The fact that we can currently carry anywhere at all in NJ currently is due to the ANJRPC suit that was filed the instant Murphy signed the “sensitive places” bill:
I think it was ~2 weeks from the day the law was signed until it was mostly enjoined by the first judge to hear it. I guess that doesn’t count as an “accomplishment”?
You want to blame someone for the law not being entirely enjoined/repealed at this point, blame the 3rd circuit for sitting on the case for over a year without issuing a decision.
Same for AWB and mag bans. The case(s) (they got joined into one case) have both been up to SCOTUS, prior decisions vacated and remanded to reconsider in light of Bruen. All of that prior case work lays the foundation for a rapid repeal of those laws if and when SCOTUS finally decides to quell the open Bruen-rebellion that some lower courts are engaging in.
To claim the pro-2A groups in NJ aren’t accomplishing anything besides filing “brief after brief” because the courts are fighting every step of the way is disingenuous.
Since when!? I’m in my 2nd year of carrying a handgun in the state of NJ, something that I heard for my entire adult life was never going to be happen.
I’m also in my 2nd year, and I agree that ANJRPC/Judge Bumb were instrumental in getting some of the “sensitive” places removed, but it was Bruen and the SCOTUS that got us here. The mag ban, outrageous fees, remaining sensitive places, onerous application requirements, etc. still remain. To repeat, I think ANJRPC and others are doing a yeoman’s job in fighting this nonsense. And as I stated in my post, I fully recognise it’s because of the 3rd that the needle hasn’t moved.
Luck of the draw. Had the timing of any of the previous ANJRPC led carry cases (such as Drake v. Filko or Rogers v. Grewal) aligned with a Supreme Court roster similar to what we have now with the appointments of Kavanaugh and Barrett then it could have been “our” case instead of Bruen:
Justice Thomas wrote a dissent in favor of hearing the case when Rogers v. Grewal was denied cert at SCOTUS in June of 2020. 9 other 2A related cases where denied at that same time.
I pretty much shared your opinion for the same basic reason as well as the fact I don’t go a lot of places and the majority of them are prohibited. I have been reconsidering my stance though simply because it would remove a bunch of potential gray area if dealing with any issues on curtilage.
